Bill Mounce

For an Informed Love of God

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Tuesday, February 2

Is Jesus God? (Rom 9:5)

Prof. Bart Ehrman claims that originally John 1:18 declared Jesus to be the “unique Son” (μονογενὴς υἱός), which was later changed to “unique God” (μονογενὴς θεός) by the orthodox scribes who wanted to assert the divinity of Christ in contrast to the adoptionists (Misquoting Jesus, 61–62.)

In my upcoming book, Why I Trust the Bible, due out in August, I deal with this text critical issue (spoiler alert, John originally did write “unique God”), but here I want to make a different point. Even if John did write “Unique Son,” there are other proofs for the deity of Christ.

For example, Mark starts his Gospel with the title, “The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,” and then spends much of his Gospel showing Jesus doing things that only God can do.

But in terms of actual statements, we have several important ones.

  • “the Word was God” (John 1:1)
  • “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18b)
  • “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30)
  • “the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13)

But the one verse that is questionable is Romans 9:5. Remember, there was little to no punctuation in the original manuscripts, so where we put the comma or period is an interpretive position. Word for word, it says,

“The Christ the according to flesh the being over all God praised forever.”
ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας

If you put a full stop after σάρκα (“flesh”), then ὁ begins a new sentence. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen” (RSV). Interestingly, the RSV translation team changed the punctuation in their revision. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen” (NRSV).

If you think Paul is affirming the deity of Christ, then you put a comma after “Messiah.” “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen” (NIV, and most translations).

The grammatical arguments favor an ascription of deity to Christ. If ὤν referred to God (the Father, not Jesus), then we have a relative pronoun before its antecedent θεός. While not impossible, it is not natural Greek. If ὁ ὤν ἐπὶ πάντων refers to θεός, then the ὤν is unnecessary. The sense would be adequately expressed as θεός ... ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων, “God who is over all). So why the ὤν? And if the doxology is directed toward God, it creates a rough transition of subject from “Jesus” to “God.” (Other arguments are in Moo, Romans, 148f.)

Rather, it is more usual to read ὁ ὤν ἐπὶ πάντων (“the one being over all”) as modifying ὁ Χριστός, and θεός being in apposition to Χριστός.

The only real argument to the contrary is that Paul nowhere else so clearly say Jesus is God, but that argument fails on Titus 2:13.

Historically this is an important passage. When the RSV (the translation I was raised on) was first published with its punctuation of this verse and its translation of Isaiah 7:14 as “young woman” and not “virgin,” the translation was virtually banned from evangelical churches.

I would not pin my doctrine of the divinity of Christ on this verse, but it most likely does affirm that fact.

Comments

Admittedly, I am lost - where is Jesus being "Affirmed as Deity" (assuming you are referencing the later tradition of the hypostatic union in an effort at an equivalency with ο παντοκρατωρ)? Such a notion seems entirely antithetical to Paul's repeated, formal and clear statements that Jesus IS a man - as distinguished from God - and likewise Jesus making the same assertion Himself (Jn8.40), etc. Simply designating/entitling someone as θεος is not relevant to the discussion as Jesus plainly taught in Jn10.30ff - and is likewise clearly expressed throughout the canon. Jesus can be the only begotten God - whatever that might even mean - despite the fact that John routinely used the phrase only begotten son - and we both know the minimal difference in form - notwithstanding only late date texts being available, etc. In addition, we know that our "rebel" religion was at odds with...yes, the Caesar cult - which asribed "my lord and my God" to their leader. Needless to say, not to be outdone, the author of John has Thomas "correcting" such a notion- and neatly done indeed...:-). Again, none of this speaks of an ontological identity with Yahweh - that is not only an unnecessary, self-serving reading of the text but results in an ontological grotesquerie of the denial of the human person of Christ (the anhypostasis) - the man Christ Jesus Himself - the very one whom God attested and made both Lord and Christ. Thus such a leap is NOT a good exegesis at all if one wants to provide the least bit of honor to the Lord of glory!

I mean no disrespect but I believe Bill knows what he is talking about. If you do not believe in the deity of Christ then I believe you have spoken much more truth than intended in the first 4 words of your post, "Admittedly, I am lost..."

It would have been great if you actually address the issues that I raised instead of your sort of juvenile comments.

I have to ask the question because it does not seem that you have read the short blog entry. You do not address any of Mounce's arguments for Rom. 9:5. Rather, I see an assertion about Paul that assumes your conclusion (begging the question). This is followed by a jump to John which is problematic because John is not Paul and neither can those passages be compared willy-nilly. After that is fluff and a historical appeal. If that historical appeal were linked to the parenthetical statement in your first sentence then it looks like a Bulverism fallacy to me. I see a smiley face emoji appended to another undefended assertion. Finally, the last two sentences are rife with ad hominems. Hence the question in my subject line. You have not engaged with anything that Mounce has put on the table. Instead, I am sure that everyone here would appreciate constructive comments. And that those more knowledgeable than me would be more than happy to address your genuine questions and concerns that engage with the text and aren't phrased to be abrasive and unconstructive.

That is a very odd reading of my comment and seems primarily simply self serving I actually directly addressed the primary point which is the use of phaos in in reference to Jesus

Meaningful exegesis is still going to at least in some sense coordinate with the rest of the text. For the least bit of validity it shouldn't stand in contrast with about 4 to 8 of Paul's clear, formal statements that Jesus is a man as opposed to some sort of deity assuming an impersonal human nature. Re Rom 9.5 This is easily read as a standard doxology - in fact it fits perfectly. Any other reading is necessarily going to be forced and standing in contrast with Paul's corpus

Allow me to respectfully add to Dr. Mounce's list of GMark's objectives (Things only God can do) ... maybe I missed it, but; - Forgive Sin...Mark 2:5-12 ESV 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone? .....“We never saw anything like this!”"

Doing now use the understanding of the Jews who were basically theological clowns as the basis of our theology? I would say that would be the antithesis of what would be used

So you think that the apostles were part of the Godhead too? John 20:23 "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” They also did sit on thrones next to Christ and God! Revelation 3.21 Wow! The apostles could heal, forgive sins, sit on thrones next to God and even judge the world. (Matt 19:28; 1 Cor 6:2) Does this make them God since Romans 3.6 clearly says "God " will judge the world"? Would it not be better to recognize that authority was GIVEN to them just as it was of Christ? John 17.2; Matt 28.18 etc.

The concept of the hypostatic union is not really a later tradition. It is fully articulated later to be sure, but it goes back to the scriptures. No less than Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews explicitly refer to Christ as both deity and man. In addition to that the other Gospel authors refer to Christ in Old Testament terms (Son of Man) that refer to the divine one like a son of man in Daniel 7, and ascribe acts to Christ that are normatively attributed to God. I think where your confusion enters is that the word Theos is normatively used to refer to the person of the Father; however, he does not use it in this manner exclusively, attributing the word Theos to the Son on several occasions. In the case of John's prologue he also does so while attributing to Christ the work of creation, something only attributed to YHWH in Genesis. You are also ignoring John 12 where he refers to Jesus as the one whom Isaiah saw when he viewed the glory of YHWH.

The proposition that possibility Paul was affirming the diety of Christ in Romans 9:5, and your thoughtful conclusion that “the only real argument to the contrary is that Paul nowhere else so clearly says Jesus is God” was insightful and appreciated. I would like to propose an alternative interpretation to Titus 2:13, which you consider to be more persuasive in the discussion regarding the suggestion that Jesus is God. According to scripture are we, in fact, looking forward to the “glorious appearing of the great God” or are we looking for the “appearing of the glory” of God? When we see the return of Jesus, it will not be the glorious appearance of God but Jesus returning in all of God’s glory. (Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38) I have also had thoughts on using John 10:30 as supporting scripture proposing that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said that “he and the Father were one.” Jesus elaborates more fully in his final prayers to the Father in Gethsemane (John 17:21-23) when he asks that “all may be one as you, Father, are in me and I in you; so that also they in us may be,” also he prays “I in them and you in me, that their unity may be complete” Jesus tells us that we all may be one with the Father through him. Being “one” with the Father makes neither Jesus, nor us, God. I would be curious from which translation you site John 1:18 and how it could be considered a legitimate translation when, as far as I know, there seems to be only one word for God in any of the original texts. We come to, John 1:1. This is the verse that originally started me on my long journey into a deeper understanding of scripture and the truth about Jesus. I was quite innocent, not really trying to prove any one theology over another however, I have come to a profound place in my studies and I need to be tested. Being mindful that a little knowledge can be dangerous, I am questioning the word order of the last phrase in John 1:1. Both “God” and “word” are in the nominative case and I am suspecting that the article “the” has nothing to do with the word order. I am inclined to render the phrase not as the word was God, but rather as “ God was the word” as the Greek syntax records. I am prayerful that you will take this communication seriously and would be inclined to comment and/or more deeply discuss the ideas as I understand them here. In His Name, Juanita

Juanita, you are almost there on John 1:1. The word order is switched to suit the English language. The verb is not past tense ("was"). In fact, Greek has no past tense. It is in the Greek imperfect tense: "In origin has-been-being [imperfect tense] the word and the word has-been-being [imperfect tense] toward the God and God has-been-being [imperfect tense] the word." Too awkward to publish in English, it is more elegant and specific in Greek because, in English, with the past tense, you would be justified to ask, "He 'was' God, but is this still so?" But the imperfect tense denotes incompleteness, plain and simple, as in contrast to the perfect tense, which would denote completeness, corresponding to our English present perfect tense ("has" + [verb]-ed).

I imagine with little effort we could find a hunderd exceptions

I actually provided a very sound reason above assuming your interested in doing biblical exegesis. There is a much larger problem of course is that the theory being propagated actually stands contrary to the repeated clear formal text of scripture

Another passage that is very strong in confirming Jesus as God is in John. In verse 41 it says of Jesus: John 12:41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. What things did Isaiah write? John 12:40 "He HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE hardened THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." This is a quote of Isaiah 6; the same point that he saw the glory which John clearly reveals was Jesus's glory. Who did the glory belong to in Isaiah 6? Isaiah 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." Even the NWT which the jehovah witnesses put together leaves it relatively similar so you can still see the definitive connection John made with the Lord high and exalted in Isaiah 6 and the one whom "they were not believing in" in John 12:37. If you see what Jesus said and did in the gospels, he undeniably asserted who He was before he got to earth; and who he continued to be while on earth those 33 years (something he fully was, but did not grasp at Philippians 2:6). Yet he was the same as God in every sense minus the majestic glory he had since the world began. John 17:5 Blessings in Christ David

Dear David, First let me make it clear, I do not deny that the term "theos" can be rightly used of Jesus. (John 1.1) Others texts are much more debatable such as Romans 9.5. Next, you seem to forget the great way that the NT quoted from the OT. (eg. John the Baptist is not really Elijah but fulfilled that role) In addition, you have not considered the Shaliach principle that is key in understanding much of Scripture. Christ is God's perfect agent. There is no problem with thinking of Christ as being at the right hand of God and thus having a throne next to him but that doesn't make him the One God of Scripture. Next, in John 17 that you quoted, Jesus clearly identifies the Father as "the only true God" (17.3) and separates himself from the "only true God." Christ is the one that the "only true God" sent. This means Jesus must be a reflection of God (Heb 1) but obviously cannot be the one God as Jesus said that is the "Father." (17.1) Unless you are Modalistic. If so, then you will have a challenge with John 14:1 that says to believe in 1) God and also (in addition) 2) Jesus Christ. Also, you speak of the "Lord High" but the Lord high or the Highest is not Jesus. The Highest one gives Jesus authority obviously something that Jesus did not already have. (Luke 1:32) Again the "Most High" or the "Highest" is a separate being than Jesus. The Most High gives Jesus his rulership. The safe thing to do is worship the same God that Jesus did. (John 4:23, Rev 3:12) Also why would you not capitalize God's Name? Jehovah is always capitalized. You capitalized Jesus which means "Jehovah is salvation" which is great as Jesus name directs us back to Jehovah but Jehovah or Yahweh however you wish to spell it should always be capitalized. Also you said that Jesus is the same as "God" in every sense. Who is "God" here? If Jesus is not then it appears you are talking about another God. If you mean "God the Father" then are you saying Jesus is the same as the Father? Trinitrianism distinguished the personhood of the Father from the Son so they are not the same in ever sense. Regardless of what you mean, it is better to go with Scripture than 4th and 5th century beliefs. God sent Jesus and Jesus thus was his agent to represent God to Men. 1 Tim 2:5.

Fee wrote, “the presence of the [on] is ultimately irrelevant in terms of meaning but its occurrence is almost certainly responsible for the present word order. Had Paul chosen to emphasize only that God should be blessed forever, then none of this discussion would have happened because there would have been no [on epi panton]. But since the emphasis is on God's being the ultimate source and ruler of "all things," especially the glorious history of his people, the word order comes out the way it does. It seems incongruous both to the letter as a whole and to the present context in particular—not to mention Paul's usage throughout the corpus—that Paul should suddenly call the Messiah [theos] when his coming in the flesh is the ultimate expression of what God is doing in the world.” Fee in Pauline Christology, 272. Actually, some of the best and most authoritative information on this was published in the first year of the Journal of the SBL now known as the Journal of Biblical Literature. It is freely available here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3268736 Besides if Mounce is correct, that Jesus is theos in Romans 9:5 that would have nothing to do with Trinitarianism but modalism. Paul has already established that the Father is (=) God and if Jesus = God then Jesus is ( =) the Father (compare Isa 9:6). Really though according to trinitarian theology God is (=) a Triune being and there is only ONE God, and if Jesus is God then Jesus is the Triune being, plain and simple. Paul does not say terms that were used many years later such as “God the Son” or the “2nd person of a triune God” he uses the term “theos” that he, as Fee rightly notes, has clearly identified as the Father (1 Cor 8:5,6) There he states that the “One God” of the Bible is “the Father.” Christ is clearly distinguished right there in this text from the “one God.” So I will listen to Paul over any person who wishes to contradict him and instead uses their personal eisegesis on this passage. Mounce is right that he would not and really no one should force or "pin" this to prove that Jesus is God.

Wow y’all are some very intellectual people. I am just a regular guy. Not very well educated. I know no Greek or Hebrew so I can only take things as I read them. It’s hard to understand GOD. He is the alpha and the omega so he is a contradiction. He is also the truth so he is not a contradiction. I don’t know much. I do know how my life changed when I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior though. I was in church many years before I actually accepted him as the risen GOD. As man he shared our burdens and temptations our pain as he was crucified. He rose on the third day as our savior and lord. I believe this in my heart and I feel it in my soul. I have seen change and I have heard GOD. Not an audible voice but I have heard. So with all the words and, all the arguments sometimes you just have to believe. I believe Jesus was a man. I believe Jesus died for me, and you. I believe Jesus is GOD. I pray that you who don’t open your ears and ask to receive the spirit, I think you will. All you have to do is believe.

With the greatest of respect to Bill Mounce, I prefer to use the clear, unambiguous testimony of scripture to answer the question - who did Paul think God was? We do not need to wrestle with punctuation or peculiar turns of phrase. Can I invite you all to listen to the received words of Paul as recorded in the most reliable manuscripts we have of the NT? Finally, before you read the passages below, can I please implore to prayerfully meditate on these scriptures before throwing in alternative arguments in the first instance. Can we agree what Paul says he thinks is the only true God in his introduction and conclusion to the book of Romans? "To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:7 "First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being proclaimed in the whole world. For God, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, is my witness, how constantly I make mention of you, always asking in my prayers if somehow now at last I may succeed to come to you in the will of God" Romans 1:8-10 Paul powerfully ends the books of Romans declaring that we should “with one mind glorify with one mouth the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” in Romans 15:6 or in full context "Now may the God of patient endurance and of encouragement grant you to be in agreement with one another, in accordance with Christ Jesus, so that with one mind you may glorify with one mouth the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore accept one another, just as Christ also has accepted you, to the glory of God." Romans 16:5-7 There is no ambiguity as to who the one true G-d is. But this does not end here. In Ephesians 4:8-10 Paul clearly states “First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being proclaimed in the whole world. For God, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, is my witness, how constantly I make mention of you, always asking in my prayers if somehow now at last I may succeed to come to you in the will of God”. Surely, we can see how for Paul, the father and son are distinct in role, authority, purpose, will etc. In 1 Cor 11: 3 Paul talks more about this. He speaks of the hierarchy of the ascended Lord Jesus when compared to men and G-d almighty. Paul IS NOT talking about Jesus in a “past tense” i.e when he was on earth (which applies to all the verses quoted today) but rather Paul is talking about our active high priest in heaven - presently “But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and the head of Christ is God.” Paul confirms this statement that the ascended Lord Jesus is always distinct from G-d almighty in regards to equality: "For he (YeHoVaH) “has put everything under his (jesus's) feet. Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (YeHoVaH) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (YeHoVaH) who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all" 1 Cor 15:27-28 Can Paul be any more clear about who the 'one' G-d is? In 1 Cor 8:6 its crystal clear "‘Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol is nothing in the world” and that “there is no God except one. ”For even if after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him". 1 Cor 8:6 Pauls statement in 1 Cor 8 above is further confirmed by a second witness in Ephesians 4 "Therefore I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to live in a manner worthy of the calling with which you were called: with all humility and gentleness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit (just as also you were called with one hope of your calling), one Lord, one faith, one baptism,  one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all. Ephesians 4:1-6. Of note, I have not addressed the title 'Lord' when used of Jesus for the simple reason that there should be no-confusion less one or two possible verses in the NT. In summary, Jesus is the Lord of Psalm 110 'YHVH said to my lord". This is an extraordinary position of authority but not one that makes Jesus equal to YHVH. If we pause for just moment, if Jesus were G-d almighty it would be ludicrous for Paul to compare him to Adam as does in Romans or to compare Jesus to the other apostles ie as per 1 Cor 1: 12-13: “What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?…” If Jesus were G-d almighty how can we be his brother? Or a fellow co-heir as Paul's claims we are with the risen Jesus (ie the non-human now fully God in the eyes of Trinitarian doctrine) in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit himself confirms to our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, also heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer together with him so that we may also be glorified together with him." There are many other passages where Paul clearly professes his deceleration of faith - to say otherwise is to profess belief in another Jesus. In Philippians, Paul opens the letter stating “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Can I ask, why do we declare that Jesus is Lord? To declare that Jesus is G-d? That’s not what Paul says. Paul says that we should confess that Jesus is Lord “to the glory of G-d the father”. Does no-one ever pick up on the point that NO-WHERE in scripture is the phrase used “G-od the son”? Philippains 2:11 Pauls ending to the letter should surprise no-one - “Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” Phillipians 4:20 Finally, lets end briefly with the full context of the book of Titus I.e looking at what the author is trying to convey that in its entirety, vice one or two verses. Paul again emphatically declares that the Father is the ONLY true G-d - "to Titus, my true child according to a common faith. Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." Titus 1:4 For completeness, just in case anyway will appeal to the dubious translation of Titus 2:13 “the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” to claim that Jesus is somehow G-d almighty to the exclusion of all the previous passages I have shared, can I please ask you to turn over the page to read Titus 3:4-7 which reads "But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." G-d our saviour is distinct from Jesus our saviour - whose very name tells us that Yehovah is salvation! Please brothers and sisters - its time to throw of the shackles of the incorrect interpretations of scripture that we have inherited from the early 'church fathers'. There is nothing to fear but everything to gain. We need to fall to our knees and repent for putting our Rabbi and Messiah, our Lord and High Priest, our King onto a cross and then placing him in our places of worship in direct opposition to the commandment not to worship ANY man-made images.: “You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You will not bow down to them, and you will not serve them, because I am YHVH your G-d, a jealous G-d, punishing the guilt of the parents on the children on the third and on the fourth generations of those hating me," Exodus 20:4-5 I hope we can all agree that this commandment is not just for those under the "old covenant"? In Romans 1:20-23 Paul utterly refutes the idea that we can legitimately display Jesus (as God) in the form of an idol IN ANY WAY, IN ANY FORM, AT ANY TIME – FOR ANY REASON "For from the creation of the world, his (Gods) invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God with the likeness of an image of mortal human beings and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles" Romans 1:20-23 G-d almighty IS NEVER to represented with the likeness of an image of a mortal human being.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).